On the decision of Timothy Snyder and Jason Stanley to leave the United States
Earlier this week, Yale professors Timothy Snyder and Jason Stanley announced that they were leaving the United States to take up academic positions in Canada.
Ordinarily, this would not be considered news. Academics move all the time. Sometimes from the United States to other countries.
But since both Snyder and Stanley have been, since 2017, the two leading proponents of the thesis that the United States is sliding precipitously toward fascism or authoritarianism, if we’re not already there, their announcement has attracted a considerable amount of attention.
Snyder’s reason, and the timing of his decision, has been somewhat murky. But Stanley has been forthright: He’s moving his family out of the country because the political climate has grown intolerable, and after Columbia announced its decision to capitulate to the Trump administration, he no longer thinks he can count on universities to oppose Trump.
What has interested me is the reaction of people online to Snyder’s and Stanley’s decision. I’m going solely by Facebook, but over the last 72 hours or so, I’ve seen a steady stream of criticism from people saying that many academics in the United States, many people in the United States, don’t have the privilege that Snyder and Stanley do. Many people have gone so far as to say that if Snyder and Stanley truly believe we’re living in fascist state, they should stay and fight.
As someone who has been on the completely opposite side of this argument since 2017, as someone who has repeatedly and publicly tussled with Stanley, both in person and on line, in formal debates and informal emails, in arguments and conversations that have frequently gotten unpleasant and nasty, I don’t understand this particular criticism of him or Snyder.
Most of their critics, as far as I can tell, are people who believe that Snyder and Stanley are correct about America: fascism has indeed come. If you do believe that fascism is here, not just rhetorically or hypothetically but in actuality, how, by your own lights, not my lights, but your own, how do you criticize two people who’ve been not only extremely outspoken in their denunciations of Trump for almost a decade; people, in Stanley’s case, who’ve been repeatedly targeted with death threats (and maybe Snyder’s, too, I just don’t know); people who, if you believe we’re living under a fascist regime, could quite easily have a target on their backs; people who have decided that for the safety and well being of themselves and their families, they must flee to a place of greater safety?
I want to make it clear that I am not arguing that either Snyder or Stanley are in danger. I am arguing that if you believe we are living under a fascist regime, and that fascist regimes tend to do certain things, one of which is to persecute their most prominent critics, I don’t really understand your criticism of Snyder’s and Stanley’s actions.
That other people don’t have their privilege, I of course concede. And…so what? Would we say to the filmmakers and authors and politicians who fled Germany in 1933, there are other filmmakers and authors and politicians and journalists and auto-workers and civil servants and Jews and trade unionists, who aren’t as privileged or lionized as you, who don’t have your resources or knowledge of foreign languages, who don’t have your contacts in France or Britain or the United States or Denmark, who can’t just up and go?
I think most people would say that anyone making such a claim was not really in touch with the reality and the danger that people are facing under such a regime.
Then I start wondering, despite some of my rethinking about the nature of the Trump threat, whether I wasn’t right all along about the people who have been saying it’s fascism—namely, that they say those words, but they don’t believe them or don’t understand them.
Again, if you really believe we’re living under a fascist regime, like the other fascist regimes of history, everything from Nazi Germany to Pinochet’s Chile, do you really condemn someone for fleeing the scene?
To me, this is one of those moments where the rubber hits the road for the left. Either you take your analysis of fascism come to America seriously—and I say “your” because it hasn’t been mine—or you revert back to the left’s insipid privilege talk, where even the right to flee the country, and go into exile, to protect yourself and your family, becomes some kind of privilege that must be shared equally before it gets used at all. Which I just see as a secular version of Christianity, where sacrifice of self is the highest good, and if we can’t improve the lot of everyone, we can’t improve the lot of anyone, and if we can’t save everyone, we can’t save anyone.
There are many criticisms one can make of Stanley’s decision. To my mind, he’s never been entirely coherent or consistent in his arguments, and this is no exception. He says that universities should band together to fight fascism in the very same sentence that he says that he’s leaving. He says he can’t raise his family in a fascist United States, but that he’s not really fleeing fascism in the United States so much as joining the fight against fascism in Canada, which he says is being targeted by the United States in the same way Yale is being targeted by Trump, which sounds about as coherent as saying, in 1938, that you’re leaving Nazi Germany to fight fascism in…Austria. So, as is often the case when he talks about politics and fascism, I’m not clear what Stanley thinks. That’s all fair game for criticism.
I can even imagine a lot of more cynical assessments of Stanley’s decision. But what I can’t understand, and what I keep coming back to, is that if you yourself believe the United States is being ruled by fascists, how can you engage in the kind of parsing and nitpicking of the decision of an outspoken critic of that fascism to leave the country.
All I can say is that, if we we really are living under a fascist regime, or even heading toward one, I’m not going to count on the people online to strategically fight it or save us. They seem to have far too great a talent for getting distracted by other priorities.
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Terrific essay. You mention your tussles with Stanley. Could you amend the essay to include a link or links to 1-2 of those tussles?
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Your comment regarding the Left’s “insipid” privilege talk is so demeaning and disrespectful I begin to doubt your self-appointment as either an expert or a fair commentator on the current situation. You clearly have abandoned any concept of fairness regarding people who take egalitarianism seriously. I thought you were above such a comment.
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I don’t believe faculty has much of a say in the running of universities. Going to Canada may (I hope not) be like going from Berlin to Paris and eventually to Santa Monica. Your comment on insipid privilege is quite apt though.
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Corey, I’ve read a couple of your books, learned from them, and admired them and you. I read your blogs and often find them as worthwhile as your books. I’m Canadian and not aware of Professor Stanley, but I read Timothy’s substack regularly. I admire him as a man. I think he is doing important work, but I find his writings can be overwrought even when they are brilliant and essential.
I wasn’t aware he was migrating to Canada. I think the Munk School at U of T is fortunate to have him join its faculty, and I, for one, welcome him to Canada.
When I read your blog communicating that, my spontaneous reaction was good! I think it underlines his warnings and makes them real in the context that you said an action like that was appropriate. America is on the slippery slope from democracy to oligarchy and plutocracy and now in an early moment of fascism. I had just written the below to a Canadian friend about David French’s column today, About the Rule of Law:
It’s a necessary column, but it leaves me perplexed and dismayed that as the snowman melts, all Americans do is watch it melt. The pundits keep telling them it is melting, but they do nothing—not in the House, not in the Senate, and not in the streets. The courts of Snowland confirm fires are being set around the snowman, and America stands by and watches it melt.
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I don’t disagree with your assessment, but I think it leaves out the whole “Americans are the most heavily propagandized population on the planet” angle. Yes, some pundits talk about the fires around the snowman, but only a small segment of the population is aware of or engages with this analysis. Most Americans are either locked into the “blue team vs. red team” sports dichotomy, or most have (understandably) checked out of the conversation entirely, because they are consciously or unconsciously aware that the political economy as reflected in the media has absolutely no bearing on their lives. The pundits will say one thing, or another thing, but voting is completely untethered to any actual outcome in their lives, as the real material decisions that affect them are not discussed at all.
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Unfortunately, many American’s are indifferent to politics and believe that ignoring the issues in our government is the best path forward. This indifference has brought us to this existential moment for our democracy. When Regan started the de industrialization of the US, we went along. When the Supreme Court determined that corporations are people too, we went along. When the Supreme Court anointed Trump a king, we went along. When Trump pardoned the J6 criminals, we went along.
I know some will say many Americans protested these actions. I would argue few Americans protested these actions. Compare our protests on these issues to the citizens in Israel protesting their PM’s attempts to disembowel their Judiciary (what Trump is now doing). Many Americans are willfully uninformed and/or believe that voting or protesting doesn’t matter. They are vulnerable to the propaganda due to their willful ignorance. More eligible voters elected not to vote for either candidate versus those that did vote for the candidate of their choice. Voting matters. Choosing to be informed is critical. Choosing to not vote or to not be informed is deadly to democracy.
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Totally agree, many (too many) residents of the US are asleep. I left the US in 2020, and my only thought now is that I may need to move further away. Oh, well, I like England.
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I can’t say that if I were in their positions I wouldn’t do the same thing.
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Snyder’s murky link is the same one as Stanley’s. We’d like to read Snyder’s too.
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I’m not sure that Canada and Yale are in quite the same category of targets, per Stanley, but your analogy to Austria in 1938 is puzzling, Unlike the Austrians, the Canadians seem fairly united in their opposition to Anschluss.
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Your “murky” link goes to a story about Stanley; Shore though says it was partly due to Trump though https://www.torontotoday.ca/local/education/university-toronto-hires-three-prominent-yale-professors-worried-about-trump-10433643?cb=1743022937
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Too many exhortations of “Stay and fight” are not grounded in any realistic notions of 1/the very nature of the war. Without which there can no conception of 2/the conditions of victory or defeat.
Rather than issue warnings about a 2nd US Civil War, historians would do better to note that the US is currently *already fighting* in the 2nd US Civil War. And has been for some time.
Any looming event that can be seen on the future horizon that will be reached if present-day trajectories continue to be followed indicates that this event exists in the present. Once a major catastrophe appears to be possible, one must assume that it will in fact occur.
Compare Jean-Pierre Dupuy on Nuclear War.
“Nuclear war has furnished me with a template for a form of rational doomsaying that describes a relationship to the future that I call projected time. This conception of time implies that once what is at risk is monumental, beyond all human measure, it is legitimate to hold that catastrophic events, once they become possible, are bound to occur. Here possibility implies necessity. The difficult thing to understand is that this necessity in no way amounts to fatalism. It may be within our power to postpone catastrophe ad vitam aeternam. Nevertheless, we must regard catastrophe as necessary; otherwise our wanting to delay its occurrence would not be sufficiently motivated. If catastrophe is merely possible, then its non-occurrence is equally possible. It is not a contradiction, in other words, to believe in both the necessity of the future and its indeterminacy”.
https://libgen.li/edition.php?id=146874250What are the battle-lines of the 2nd Civil War? In this historical instance – the condition of Nihilism – we also need to ask, do the participants in the conflict even necessarily understand what is being fought over? Or are most of the belligerents, mindless “indigenous American berserks” as Roth once described Americans? Americans are the most violent people in human history: in possession of by far and away the most powerful and destructive military; firearms outnumber people; a state of perpetual U.S. warmaking has meant that PTSD is an epidemiological mental and cultural condition.
Horkheimer’s “Whoever refuses to talk about Capitalism must remain silent about Fascism” can be paraphrased to better describe the present-day as “Whoever refuses to talk about Liberalism as the primary ruling political ideology of Capitalism, must remain silent about Fascism”.
A simple literature review: take books by Stanley, Ben-Ghiat, Synder, Albright, Traverso, Applebaum et al., go to the index and find ZERO mentions of Capitalism. Nothing at all. Or even much about economic conditions in general.
Fascism is just some sort of axiological bourgeois life-style choice (it’s all about “values”) and if only everyone could be more properly dressed then everyone would be better behaved.If all of the participants in the 2nd Civil War are afflicted with lethal, terminal stupidity, then it is clear there are no possible victory conditions.
This means there is no good reason to fight.For reasons such as this, people such Franco Berardi prescribe the virtues of desertion.
“Remembrance Day: The Unknown Deserter”
https://shrineodreams.wordpress.com/2015/11/11/remembrance-day-the-unknown-deserter/ -
I recently met Dr. Snyder at a book talk in NYC, and I enjoyed reading (and agree with much of) his new book/memoir on freedom. He’s also a fellow Ohioan. But it’s hard to deny that he enjoys a significant amount of privilege in holding an Ivy League professorship, many high-level contacts, and an ability to expat to a good academic position in Canada. I don’t have those things.
Would I flee if I had the ability and the opportunity? It’s a very hard decision. I mean, my family has been in this part of the world since 1621, and I regard this as MY country. I do feel I have an obligation to stay and try to prevent its slide into full-fledged fascist authoritarianism. Are we there yet? I don’t know, but I don’t think so, and I don’t think the hysterical reactions of many on the left are helpful. Calm, rational, focused attention to preserving a democratic republic in some form is needed. What we can do, I’m not sure.
Running away does make a statement, however, especially if you have a voice that you can make heard.
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Telling that you don’t mention Professor Marci Shore is also leaving.
Beyond that, there’s a difference in degree, not kind, between Germany in 1933 and Germany in 1943. Has America moved into Fascism? IMHO, yes, but I’ll be happy to give you an update in ten years re: if Democrats are still allowed to run in elections without being arrested by a highly pro-Trump police force or military, or how many US citizens are in jail without access to lawyers and larger due process.
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Some links to or discussion about your disagreements with Stanley and Snyder would make this more worthwhile.
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I’m one of those “distracted” people, very distracted.
When I’m pushed to think, by your log for instance, categories of thinking like Left and Right, Socialist and Capitalist……etc, become less important when trying to phantom what’s happening in our Country today.
I see human civilization like waves, eventually breaking on the beach. Their growth is way longer than their dissipation.
The current generations living the American Wave has now reached an impressive height. And if there were a consciousness swirling on the highest peaks, the view would be grandest, riding above the sea and beholding the sky and universe.
I think the turbulence below, while inconsistent and foolish, supports the view above and is somehow unawarely benevolent, because it allows the view above.
I think you, Corey, are grappling in this dilemma. -
“a secular version of Christianity, where sacrifice of self is the highest good, and if we can’t improve the lot of everyone, we can’t improve the lot of anyone, and if we can’t save everyone, we can’t save anyone.”
I am not aware of any denomination which subscribes to this novel soteriology! What are you talking about?
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I’d also like to know more about your disagreements with Snyder and Stanley.
I’d also like to know if anyone has written about the dual rise of the authoritarian LEFT and RIGHT and why no one is concerned about the authoritarianism of the far left, the kind that supported Bernie and AOC until even they failed the purity test, and who now look to Mamdani as their new leader.